Paul Austin as Interviewed by Justin Bozung

Paul Austin is an actor, teacher and theatrical director residing in New York City.  Austin, served as the Production Manager of the 1966-67 theatrical production of The Deer Park at the Theatre de Lys  before working on Maidstone (1971).

JB: Can you tell me how you came to be a part of the 1966-67 Theatre de Lys production of Norman Mailer's The Deer Park?

PA: I didn't act in the play.  I served as the stage or production manager for it.

JB: Right.  How did you come to work on the production in that capacity then?  Had you known [Director] Leo Garen?

PA: Well, I already knew Rip Torn because I had worked with him in a production of The Kitchen which had been directed by Jack Gelber.   It's my understanding that Rip, Norman, and Leo Garen had been fiddling around with The Deer Park in Provincetown beforehand.  When they decided to bring it to the Theatre de Lys, they started to ask around for a recommendation. Jim Walsh was to produce The Deer Park for the Theatre de Lys, and he had known my work from The Kitchen and Rip had been familiar with my work as well, so I was suggested to Norman and Leo and they hired me as the Stage Manager. 

JB: I've read some of the reviews for the production and it seems as if it was quite the intense theatrical experience...

PA: It was very intense... (Laughing)  Of course, Norman had two of his wives in it.  Adele [Morales] and Beverly [Bentley].   Norman had wanted to open it on his forty-fourth birthday.  That was why there are forty-four scenes in the play.  Altogether, there were something like five-hundred queues in it.  It was technically very difficult to stage.  Norman was always bringing in changes as well.   He brought in re-write after re-write after re-write.   Rip, at a point, got very upset.  He said to me, "Paul, let's get the crew and everyone else on stage.  We've got to tell Norman to stop bringing in these re-writes.  We're opening soon and we can't keep re-learning these lines..." He told everyone on the stage that they needed to back him up.  He was furious about it .  When Rip was furious--you could get quite intimidated.  Everyone kind of just nodded their heads in approval. 

The Theatre de Lys had a little balcony in it and the production office was just off of the balcony.  I sent the Assistant up to get Norman.  Norman looked out at us from the office and you got the sense that he knew that something was up.  Norman came out, and leaned over the balcony and said, "What is it?"   Rip was pacing around the stage like crazy.  Rip looked up at Norman and said, "Listen Norman, you gotta stop with these re-writes."   Norman just stood there and listened for a second.  Then Norman said, "Well, Rip...We really have to make this as good as it can be..."  Rip came back loudly at him, "See! That's what I'm talking about!"   They went back and forth with each other for a few minutes and clearly Norman wasn't going to give in to any of Rip's demands.  Rip said, "Well, the cast feels the same way as I do..."  Not one of the other cast  members spoke up.  Rip stood there for a second and then said, "Fuck it Norman.  Do whatever you want..."   Rip was just brilliant in The Deer Park as Marion Faye.   He won an Obie Award for that I believe.

JB: Can you tell me about the giant electronic scoreboard that was used in the play?

PA: That was part of Norman's almost implicit metaphor that he carried around with him always-- which is that life is like a series of rounds in a boxing ring.  It was used to do a countdown for every scene. The scoreboard either counted up from one to forty-four or down from forty-four to one.  I can't remember now which way it went though.  It was a long time ago.

JB: Norman had quite a say regarding the staging for the production, didn't he?   He had a say in the casting...

PA: He did. He had a lot of control over the production.

JB: What was the working relationship like between Norman and Leo Garen?

PA: They got along very well.  It was the '60s and everyone was sort of stoned half the time though so we didn't always work as fast as we could have. If you're the stage manager then your job is to kind of push things along when things get slow.  I was a little leery about Leo for that reason because he really liked to experiment with the actors.  I said to Norman at one point, "Norman, why did you pick this guy to be the director?"    Norman said something to me that was very illuminating.  He said, "You know the people I like?  I like people that are afraid to get up in morning.  Because when they do get up, it's because of a tremendous amount of courage.  That's what I like about Leo."   Norman had a great respect for people that were working very hard to overcome fear, and I always assumed that that was very much a part of his own make-up as well.

JB: Did Norman ever offer any input to the actors regarding their approach to the characters himself?

PA: No!  Leo took care of all of that.   Norman was vocal about something if he didn't like it, but he would be discrete about it.  He would never say anything in front of the actors.  He would pull Leo aside and say something like, "Leo, I don't think that's the right approach to that scene. This is how it should go..."   

JB: Norman's first film WILD 90 (1967) was inspired by several improv sessions that he had with Buzz Farber and Mickey Knox after performances of The Deer Park at Casey's Bar on 10th Street in the Village...

PA: Yes, I was over there with them a couple times.  Most of us would go over to Casey's afterward ...I saw them doing that stuff.  I don't remember anything significant about that though now.  I remember seeing them throwing stuff around the bar but I don't remember much more other than that.

JB: Rip Torn said that playing Marion Faye in The Deer Park was a intense experience for him in that he began to feel as if he was actually becoming Marion Faye...

PA: Rip always worked that way.  It was true when I worked with him on The Kitchen, and also when we worked together afterward. He always  immersed himself in the life of the character, and it was always difficult for him to get out of it--particularly during the rehearsal period. That is because you don't have the audience responding or the curtain to tell you when it is over with for the night.  In rehearsal, you're working around the clock. Once you're  immersed in the task itself--it is very hard to escape it until it's over with.

JB: How did Norman approach you with the idea for MAIDSTONE?  Did he pitch it to you in any particular manner?  Did he say, "This is going to be a attack on the nature of reality"?

PA: Norman just called me and asked him if I'd be interested in giving him a hand on the film.   He said," I need someone who has worked with me before.  The film is going to be completely improvised.  Pennebaker is going to be shooting it."  He pitched it pretty much in the same manner as how he has written about it since then.    Norman had a great admiration for actors.  He also had a admiration for people that could essentially find a truth in themselves.   

JB: Did you assist Norman with any of the casting for MAIDSTONE?  I know there were something like one hundred people that took part over the course of the six days of shooting....

PA: No, and I think that Norman just called everybody that he knew...(Laughing)  He had a rough plot outline in mind and he had everyone draw out of a hat to see if they would be against him or with him. Meaning that people were either going to help him become President or they were going to be against him.  Then Norman divided those people up based on his instincts  before we started to roll the cameras.  The actors that came with us were actors that he knew already.  Some of them had popped up in Provincetown when he and Beverly were trying to get stuff going there.

JB: The film comes in the wake of the Robert Kennedy assassination...Did Norman ever talk about that with you? Or how that could have been a catalyst for the plot or the film itself?

PA: No, he never mentioned that.  But I do remember one moment between Norman and I that proved itself to be quite illuminating.   Norman had asked me to get a tiger or lion cage for him.  He wanted me to find a cage and he wanted me to place it on the Ossorio estate.    I found one, ordered it, and had it delivered.  It came one of the evenings that we were all there.  It was about ten o'clock at night.  It was really dark out.    I went to Norman and said, "I've placed the lion cage for you. I want to know if you can come and take a look at it to tell me if it's in the right place for you."  So we walked over and we stood there for a moment and Norman said, "You know, Paul, I think that someone really might try to assassinate me..."  I looked at him for a second, and it got me emotional. I was almost teary-eyed.  I said, "Oh No. Norman, I don't think that will happen..."   He paused, then he smiled at me with this little smirk and said, "Boy, that was a great scene, wasn't it?"      I was surprised.  I said, "Okay, well, let's get Pennebaker over here and we can shoot it!"  He responded with, "Oh, I can't do that again, I'm not an actor."  (Laughing)

JB: The internet credits you with the title of "Production Manager" on MAIDSTONE.  Yet, articles written during the making of the film suggest that you were one of the producers... How does one produce or manage a film like MAIDSTONE?

PA: You don't. (Laughing).  I think Norman gave me the title of "Line Producer".  That was basically how I was functioning, but it wasn't really that formal in its arrangement.  

JB: There were scenes in the film shot at the estates of Alfonso Ossorio, Robert Lion Gardner, Barney Rossett, Elizabeth Brackman...Were you put to the task of coordinating the shoot and when everyone would be at those respective estates?  How did that all work?

PA: I would go around to the various locations and make sure that everything was in place. Pennebaker was very organized for the shoot, so I didn't have to do too much in regards to arranging  the actual spaces.  Norman and some people that he knew--who had connections got the estates on board.  What I did, basically, was just to go around and make sure that everything was happening as he desired it to happen.

JB: What was Norman's intention in regards to the lion cage that he requested from you?

PA: You know, I can't remember now.  I don't think it ended up in the film.

JB: What was it like in the air at any given moment?  Some written reports suggest that there was quite a bit of tension in the air.  Norman had his wife there, his ex-wives, and his mistresses all floating around...

PA: There was always a lot of tension in the air.  As I remember, everyone there took Norman's intention for the film very seriously.  Everyone was in-tune with the experiment, and the experiment itself came very loaded with tension.  Which, of course, was Norman's intention from the start.  It was interesting because of how the people just lived with the tension, and accepted it as it was just part of the event.  I could feel it.  I think back about it and wonder how I got through it. Everyone could feel it. The mistresses and the wives too.  Norman would do things like bring each in on different days during the shoot.  Norman was always orchestrating. 

JB: Do you think the addition of alcohol into the mix added to the tension in the air?

PA: Certainly, but there was more than alcohol going around. (Laughing)

JB: How about the appearance of the ethnic groups in the film?   Did you have anything to do with finding those people? 

PA: I didn't.  To my knowledge Norman took care of that himself.

JB: At night, people would leave the estate (s) and go and stay the night at the Hilton Acres Hotel?  How much debauchery was going on there?

PA: Well, I don't think I can talk about that. (Laughing)  Remember, I'm an actor too and it's not in my best interest to go squealing on anyone. (Laughing)

JB: How about Hervé Villechaize?   James Toback's account of the making of MAIDSTONE in Esquire mentions how you saved Hervé from the bottom of a swimming pool...

PA: I did.  That's right.   It was myself and another person...

JB: Lane Smith?

PA: Right, yes, Lane Smith. 

JB: Can you talk about what lead up to that situation or how it came about?

PA: I'm not sure exactly about what lead up to it, but, Hervé had been doing some coke and was drinking a lot.  You know, he always had a knife on him there.  He was a dangerous guy, but an incredible actor.   And if you looked at him funny, he'd threaten you.  I know, because it happened to me.  If you looked at him in the wrong way...Well, I did it once to him.  I caught myself...I don't why I did this, but I realized that I was giving him a sort of patronizing look and he looked right at me and he said, "Don't ever fucking do that to me again."  I understood exactly what he was saying to me.  I don't think that Hervé tried to commit suicide or anything in the pool.  I think that he had just accidentally fallen into the pool. 

JB: Did you happen to just stumble out to the pool at the time to discover him at the bottom? How did that happen?  

PA: You know, I can't recall. I just remember jumping in and bringing him up. Lane and I jumped in after him and when we came to the top someone pulled him out and someone else took him to the hospital.

JB: There is, of course, a famous story of Norman punching Lane Smith out during the shooting...

PA: Right, yeah.  Lane had had too much to drink as well. He and a few other actors had come because they had been hanging around at another estate and hadn't gotten anything done on camera. Lane...I know this happened in the late afternoon. He started ripping into Norman for whatever reason. Norman said something like, "If you're looking for trouble, you've come to the wrong place..."  Lane dared him, and then Norman went after him. I remember that José Torres was there and a couple other boxers too.  José, was a dear friend of Norman, and he got upset about it and he moved in like he was about to go in after Lane! The other boxers or a couple others there were holding José back from getting involved. The fight didn't last long. The crew was inside shooting.  I believe it happened at the Ossorio estate, and when it broke out I rushed inside and said, "Get out here!"  I wanted them to come out to help and stop the fight, but when they came out they started filming it!  I said, "C'mon you guys! Don't start shooting it, stop it!" By the time they got outside the fight was coming to an end and they didn't catch all of it on film, but Norman did break Lane's jaw in the fight.

JB: Norman was upset about how James Toback's piece on the making of MAIDSTONE in Esquire portrayed him....Was Norman out of control as the director during the shoot as the piece suggests?

PA: Of course he was.  He never intended to be in control. You're not supposed to be in control on an experimental film. He'd send a camera crew off to shoot a scene in the "brothel" and they'd say to him, "What do you want us to do Norman?" He'd say, "Just do what you want.  You guys have your own missions."

JB: You couldn't have possibly had the ability to watch what you were shooting via dailies the next day?

PA: No, absolutely not.

JB: Were you around when Rip attacked Norman with the hammer?

PA: I wasn't there for that. That was on the last day of shooting. That was Rip.  When I spoke to Rip about it, he said that he felt that he had to do something because the film required it. In Rip's terms, Rip was doing the work of the film. The hitting of Norman with the hammer...Rip said, "I didn't hit him that hard..." (Laughing)  

JB: So you weren't there on the island for that, but when they came back from the island was there a feeling in the air of something gone awry?  Did Norman relate to you what had happened?

PA: No, he didn't.  In fact I don't have a memory of seeing either of them that day.   Rip had left at a certain point and I wasn't around then, and I don't recall seeing Norman around that time either. When I did eventually talk to Rip about it, it wasn't till later on.

JB: It's such a important scene.  It's that reality in the non-reality.  It echoes the effects of the Zapruder film on the consciousness....

PA: Right, and Rip was in both the non-reality and the reality of it, whereas someone like Beverly was solely in the reality of the moment.

JB: Do you know how "Ultra Violet", the Warhol actress, came to be in MAIDSTONE?

PA: If memory serves me, I think that she came because she had known Michael McClure.

JB: Did Norman ask you to be involved in the editing of the film?

PA: Norman did ask me if I wanted to help. I declined because I knew that it was going to be a mammoth task, and I knew that I really wouldn't be much help simply because I wasn't really interested in film that much, and I had never edited anything prior.  If I would have taken on that duty--I only would have been only an extra set of eyes. 

JB: Once everything was in the film can they had something like forty-five hours of footage on hand, and I believe that Norman said in the aftermath via an interview that he felt that there was just too much of 'Kingsley' in the footage?

PA: The stuff that Norman shot in the role of Kingsley was done in long sessions.  One thing that comes to mind as an example was the session with Carol Stevens.   I mean, that scene of them at the table in the film now-was shot over an entire afternoon!  I mean they shot that for hours and hours.

JB: Norman once said that he was emulating director Leo Garen in the role of Kingsley because that was the only director that he had actually ever observed in person...I was wondering in your estimation if Garen had that type of directorial approach that Kingsley had in MAIDSTONE?

PA: I don't see that connection.  Leo was loose as a director, and that might be a connection to Kingsley.  Yet, I was a Stage Manager on The Deer Park, and it would have been difficult for me to observe all of what Leo was doing.  Maybe, one of the things that Norman picked up from Leo was just how open he was with actors to try anything that he wanted to?  He loved to try things from as many different angles as possible.

JB: Of your time on MAIDSTONE...What's your favorite anecdote?   Are you withholding any stories from me? (Laughing)

PA: Well, I'm withholding quite a few stories from you, because as I mentioned earlier, I'm not squealing on anyone... (Laughing)  I did live in my own work on the film, and I think my favorite aspect of working on MAIDSTONE would have to be how the experience refined my own sense of reality, and how Norman's understanding of reality itself and that tension that needs to always be present when one is acting is vitally important.